Crag Maintenance

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"Crag Maintenance

Background

At the South Wales bolt meeting July 2011 it was agreed that proposals for Gower crags to be bolted should be voted on at the regular area meetings. Following agreement at an area meeting, consent would then be sought from the landowner before bolting takes place – so the consensus of the climbing community at an area meeting does not necessarily mean that the landowner has given consent.

In the area meeting in March 2012, it was agreed that any one proposing crags/routes to bolt is asked to post them onto the SWMC wiki before bringing them up at the local area meeting, so that climbers can consider them and visit the crag if necessary to inform their view.

Please note that all proposals listed on this page should be considered 'projects' and left unclimbed while consensus is being reached so hands off!


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Proposals for Discussion - BMC meeting 2014 Clydach 26th March

Previous Minutes, agenda, etc.


Crag: Llangattock

Proposer:--Roy thomas (talk) 12:53, 21 March 2014 (GMT)

Description:' Wo Nerdlands E6 6b Martin Crocker 1987. Discuss whether to:

  1. sport up
  2. remove old pegs and bolts (already stolen) and leave as an open free project with regrading and renaming.
  3. replace the two bolts with good modern ones
  4. do nothing and leave as a piece of crumbling historical esoteria

Comments: it was a route reliant on fixed gear in the first place whats the difference between that and a sports route? Eugene Travers Jones



Crag: Llangattock

Proposer:--Roy thomas (talk) 12:53, 21 March 2014 (GMT)

Description: Discuss whether with Andy's consent More Fool You E5 6a(1979) have it's Br's Pr's and lower off rope attached to missing stake replaced giving a Fr 7a+

Comments: replace in my view as a sports route if andys ok with it. Eugene Travers Jones

Andy just e mailed me "go ahead mate am in spain"--Roy thomas (talk) 22:30, 21 March 2014 (GMT)



Crag: Llangattock

Proposer:--Roy Thomas

Description: IQ Test has 5 points of aid- "discuss whether to replace them with bolts giving a hard open sport project or remove them and leave a trad project open to all with possible renaming as is (was) the custom.

Comments: IQ is a semi aid route surely its open season for anybody to do as free climbing sports route. Eugene Travers Jones



Crag: Equal Opportunities Cave

Proposer: Goi Ashmore

Description: - Equal Opportunities Cave is that just West of White Edge (Shire Combe Area). There is a developed bouldering site on the RHS of the cave going about 1/4 way up and a steeper cave section to the left. The cave would take several sports routes, which would need developing with care in order to avoid damaging some of the conglomerate rails. It would be very similar in nature and completely in character with other nearby venues such as Watch House East, Fox Hole and Bacon Hole and there is no real form of natural protection. The area is heavily grafitied and there is evidence of extensive dig out of the cave by cavers, therefore the site would not appear sensitive. Lower offs would be essential in any case due to the top outs. The existing bouldering would not be affected in any way.

Comments:This place isn't located in a SSSI. --Tim Hoddy (talk) 00:23, 30 November 2013 (GMT)



Crag: Llangattock

Proposer: Roy Thomas

Description: Hitman E4,6b had bolt runners, the first ascentionist has no objections if it is rebolted as a sport route. (He also has indicated that his other 80's style clip ups Mad Hatter E5,6b and Culmination Crack E3,6a could be sported as well)

Propose Hitman be bolted to give a Fr 6c+/7a--Roy thomas (talk) 12:21, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

Comments:




Crag: Llangattock


Proposer:Matt Woodfield


Description:I think this is best looked at by crag section, we have a few options for each area:

  1. Remove all fixed gear, no bolts allowed, derecognise these routes, trad only.
  2. Protect all old routes, new sport routes allowed
  3. New sport route allowed, retro some old trad lines, leave the good ones
  4. Retro everything, new routes allowed.

I propose we consider use of bolts section by section, allowing modern developments and creating more user friendly climbing, without losing valuable traditional climbs. I dont think we should be replacing gear point for point - its either a trad route without bolts, or a clip up.

Far Eastern Edge:
Propose bolting allowed. New routes and Retro those reliant on fixed gear or after consultation. Save if Trad line of value. ie Cottonwool Cafe(14) and Westling the Polar Bear (16)

Eastern Edge:
Propose bolting allowed. New routes and Retro those reliant on fixed gear. Save trad lines, stakes or BB required.

Main Area:
Propose bolting allowed. New routes and Retro those reliant on fixed gear or after consultation. Save if Trad line of value. ie Z.X.(36) (would need stake or BB)

Fighting Cock:
Propose bolting allowed. New routes and Retro those reliant on fixed gear or after consultation.

Winning Wall:
Propose bolting allowed. New routes and Retro those reliant on fixed gear. Save if Trad line of value. Stake or BB required.

Right Hand Area:
Propose bolting allowed. New routes and Retro those reliant on fixed gear or after consultation. If Trad line saved then BB required

Chwar Pant Y Rhiw:

Pinnacle Bay:
Propose no bolting allowed. Stakes will be required.

Flowstone Wall:
Propose no bolting allowed. Stakes will be required. (however, if this were to be bolted it would be very popular)

Main Area:
Propose bolting allowed. New routes and Retro those reliant on fixed gear or after consultation. If Trad line saved then BB required

Craig Y Castell:
Propose no bolting allowed. Stakes will be required.

Please discuss and add your own ideas, these can then form the basis or a meeting in the Llangattock area to plan its future.

Comments:What I read through quickly seemed most sensible for all camps. Ta Matt.--Roy thomas (talk) 12:09, 20 April 2014 (BST)




Crag:Llangattock


Proposer:R.Thomas


Description:Add to agenda for the sept meeting 2014 Matt Woodfields above proposals and mine also posted above(see no need to re-iterate them)


Comments:




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Proposals to be discussed in area meeting 2013

Documents from BMC Meeting (31/01/2013)


Crag: Rhossili - Shipwreck Cove

Description: Query about bolting

Comments:

This place is causing a bit of a fuss, ukc claims of touting for bolts etc..

I can, t find anything out about how this crag was proposed or voted for bolting, except 2012 bmc minutes voting against bolting at rhossilli.

Can somebody direct me to the documentation for the vote for bolting, and specifically, where the accepted limits of bolting are.

Thanks.--Alan rosier (talk) 10:12, 26 July 2013 (BST)


The only thing I can find is this from the notes in the Gower Bolt Policy meeting:

Rhossilli – New quarried buttress’ of rock. New sport routes Meeting taken place with National Trust wardens and Gower access rep, sport routes allowed on certain faces with conditions. See separate doc. Stuart Llewellyn For - 19 Against - 0 Abstain – 6 APPROVED

From here - http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=551

But I don't think that's talking about Shipwreck Cove specifically. I think it seems to have mostly been left out of discussions and Simon et al have just carried on with it. Unless there's something that's been agreed at the most recent South Wales Area meeting, but there's no minutes for that up yet.

--Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer (talk) 10:48, 26 July 2013 (BST)


Roy mentions something in his Rhossili (Silent Fright) post below. Sounds like a national trust (not BMC) permit to bolt. I would just like to know the details. Firstly to stop whinging UKC users from thowing around fictional accusations and secondly so that if i want to do any new routes (before Adrian's 30 route bolt fest) I know I'm not going to get into hot water.--Alan rosier (talk) 11:24, 26 July 2013 (BST)

BMC doesn't give permit to bolt, but area meetings I guess do. The quarried area at Rhossili doesn't include Shipwreck. It would be good to deal with Shipwreck retrospectively at the area meeting on 3rd including the new area between Shipwreck and Sheepbone that Adrian is canvassing views on. (Goi)


Al I asked the NT bloke(Matt Woodfield I think)and he said the Blockiness bit was ok and the actual cove itself fine so there's more on that wall to be done before Adrians boltathon.E mail him,they are not anti-bolt at all, as long as we are sensible and don't spread like a bad rash along the beach but ask first.--Roy thomas (talk) 11:44, 26 July 2013 (BST)

Crag: Llangattock

Proposer: Roy Thomas

Description: Bolting Policy Review

Comments: Quarried limestone, lower offs required due to frequent "theft" of stakes and rubbly top outs. "Old school" clip up "harder" routes with decayed gear. New route potential for lower grade sport routes.--Roy thomas 23:31, 13 August 2012 (BST)

Lower offs make sense here as the top outs are so horrible. Matthew Moore 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Lower offs seem sensible, but bolting exsisting trad lines seems a waste of time when there is so much unclimbed rock, why not develop new areas for sport and leave the trad as it is ? Simon Rawlinson

The crag's mix and match routes (those relying on the odd bolt, or a lot of in situ gear) should be assessed. A decision should be taken on whether to remove rotting gear and de-recognise the routes or bolt them up properly. Its time to deal with the misguided legacy of the 80s at all crags in the area. (Goi)


Crag: Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd

Proposer: Gary Lewis

Description: Additional bolt to headwall of Fly Me to the Moon

Comments: A climber sustained serious injury on this route recently.

This has already been done - so not sure why it's here. If the FA wants to do it (and already has done it), then fair enough. Matthew Moore 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Not sure why this has come up as a discussion item - the bolting policy is that sandstone may be retroed with the first ascensionist's permission. (Goi)


Crag: Foxhole (Gower)

Proposer: Roy Thomas

Description: Little Miss Lover E4 6a

Comments: Replace old fixed gear with bolts, install belay - this is generally regarded as a "sport crag" --Roy thomas 11:23, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Didn't realise there were trad routes here to be honest. Sounds like it would be better off as a sport route, on what is basically a sport crag. Assuming the FA agrees, then guess so. Matthew Moore 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST) As agreed at the June 2011 meeting the FA doesn't have to agree but "be consulted",has anyone been in touch with him (Martin Crocker)--Roy thomas 13:42, 3 September 2012 (BST)



Crag: Rhossili - Silent Fright Buttress

Proposer: Roy thomas 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Description: Bolt and install belay on SILENT FRIGHT E4 6a, Executioner's Thrill E4 6b, Audience of Sheep E5 6b also new sport developement permitted.

Comments: The whole of this area is quarried non tidal limestone. The National Trust have permitted sport developement in this area last year, the routes have a great deal of corroding fixed gear and "tat"; Audience of Sheep already has a bolt. --Roy thomas 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Have mixed feelings about this. There are already several hard sport routes in the area, do we really need to retro all the hard trad routes as well? What does the FA say? Matthew Moore 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST) Andy Sharp(the FA) agrees in fact he suggested it to me that's why it's mainly his routes named.--Roy thomas 13:45, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Personally i would rather this was all left as Trad, not convinced it would be a great sport venue anyway and the lines mentioned are very good trad lines that are not 'Clip up's' the rock on the lower half of Audiance with sheep would not take a bolt (very loose) so you would end up with a sketchy sport route that would be inviting a incedent. Simon Rawlinson



Crag: Odin's Cave - (Three Tors Area)

Proposer: Roy thomas 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Description: Bolt, install belay on Obscenities E4 6b. Also permit new sport development.

Comments: Non tidal "cave" corroded fixed gear. --Roy thomas 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

The whole Three Cliffs area should remain bolt free IMHO. Matthew Moore 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST) Recently declared SS I, like Malham ,Goredale etc. The NT have declined permission to bolt. Those wishing to repeat will have to replace the pegs and threads themselves.--Roy thomas 21:13, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

What efforts are being made to understand why the NT is opposed to this bolting at Odin's Cave. Is it because of damage to specific geological features (and therefore no climbing should be taking place) or is there a more specific concern - it would be good to get more details on this. (Goi)



Crag: Pobbles Bay Quarries (Three Cliffs Bay) --Roy thomas 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST))

Proposer: --Roy Thomas 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

Description: Bolts, lots of them wooooooo!! spreading through the bay.

Comments: Old non tidal quarr(y)(ies) suitable for easier sport routes at the grade of climbing predominant in Three Cliffs Bay but without having to fumble with your nuts or risk getting wet feet.--Roy thomas 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

I'd agree with this proposal. Having climbed there tonight, the trad climbing is poor due to lack of protection, loose top and nothing to anchor the top belay to except some gorse bushes 15m back from the edge. Bolting and a little clean up of loose rock would provide 4 or 5 pleasant, safe, accessible, low grade climbs. Gower is lacking beginner friendly sports routes. --Tim Boothby 00:09, 23 August 2012 (BST)

We have cleared the bolting of this quarry with the NT(have confirmatory e mail)but the first ascentionist(s) of the established routes should be consulted(note change in wording as a result of group decision at the 2011 meeting)so if the meeting agree on the 4th Sept there should be no reason not to go ahead despite the profusion of "quality" trad routes appearing there.--Roy thomas 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

Again, would prefer the area to remain bolt free. Matthew Moore 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

This old quarry is a prime candidate for bolting. No one in their right mind would want to climb trad there unless, perhaps, to bag a first ascent. I understand that the first ascentionists are keen for this crag to be fully bolted. If that happens then it would make a nice, non-tidal, sheltered climbing spot for beginners. --Tim Hoddy 13:32, 3 September 2012 (BST) Fully agree Tim anyone can bolt my two trad lines there if they wish--Roy thomas 10:14, 31 January 2013 (GMT)



Crag:The Creation of an account

Proposer:--Roy thomas 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

Description:Several people have commented that they would like to post on this forum but have no"account"

Comments:As this is open and they can read it,HOW DO THEY DO THIS? --Roy thomas 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

They use the 'Create Account' link at the top right of each page! Please remember to use your REAL NAME as your username (e.g. 'Fred Bloggs', 'Sidney Greenstreet', 'Tim Hoddy', etc.), otherwise I'll probably just delete the account. --Tim Hoddy 10:07, 2 September 2012 (BST)
You could also use this link to sign up. Create an Account --Tim Hoddy 11:02, 2 September 2012 (BST)




Crag:Llantrisant Drugs Cliff

Proposer:--Roy thomas 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Description:Sandstone Quarry

Comments:Regear very old bolts(8mms)

Good call (goi)



Crag: Paviland Far Far West

Proposer: --Roy thomas 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Description: Complete the refurbishment with bolts

Comments: Agreed at June 2011 Gower meeting and NT on side. Done fully regeared,respect the two ongoing projects.--Roy thomas 20:58, 9 March 2013 (GMT)




Crag: Llanbradach

Proposer: --Roy thomas 13:59, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Description: Continue regearing

Comments: There are 100 or so routes here another 15+still need rebolting




Crag: Barlands Quarry Gower

Proposer: --Roy thomas 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Description: Slabs with missing/ crumbling old hangers.

Comments: Replace Lower Offs/refurbish old bolt/hangers where needed. New sport routes provided a rope can be got in from the top. This place is popular for the easier route and a bit of the shiny stuff would do wonders. There are also some hard 7a,7b+ routes that need bolt hangers which have been missing for 15yrs. --Roy thomas 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Some regearing work was started but the regearing rope and screwgate anchors were stolen before completion--Roy thomas 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)




Crag: Machen Cycle Track Quarry

Proposer: Rhys Mence

Description: Recent Bolting

Comments: Someone has begun bolting routes in this quarry and i'm wondering who it might be? I live in Machen and would be more than happy to help set up routes. Theres large amounts of moss and vegetation on the walls but when i realised someone had bolted a line I had a good look and realised this crag could have some potentially great routes. It's not a large quarry and seepage could be a problem but it's easy accessible if your willing to walk 10 minutes down the track.

Hi rhys, I imagine its Dave Emmanuelle. He's a user here so ty him.--Alan rosier 22:46, 18 September 2012 (BST)

These are all awaiting dry conditions,maybe this summer (unless it's like 2012) so keep off them until until informed of completion on wikki.--Roy thomas 20:54, 9 March 2013 (GMT)



Crag: Foxhole

Proposer: --Roy thomas 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

Description: Little Miss Lover

Comments: Anyone contacted Crocker yet,if all agree shall a complets refit be done?Just seen the minutes for forthcoming meeting and see this has recieved attention.




Crag: Llangattock--Roy thomas 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

Proposer:

Description: Any news of the placing of lower offs/bolting meeting supposed to be taking place solely to discuss this area.

Comments: Just seen the minutes of the meeting and see that this has been mentioned




Crag: Port Eynon --Roy thomas 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

Proposer:

Description: Sport routes in the zawns possibly already proposed by others previously.

Comments:




Crag: Deep Cut (Dark Side of the Moon Zawn)

Proposer: Danny McCarroll

Description: This is the tidal bit of Foxhole. Propose to bolt the existing easier trad routes here and add a few lines to give a collection of easier sport routes. Foxhole is a sport crag now and these routes are rarely if ever climbed. In contrast, the one easy route on the slab above (Power of the leapord skin leg warmers, grade 3) is very popular. Adding these routes would provide a much-needed venue where beginners can learn to climb outside in relative safety. The lower-offs would be accesible from the top, so someone can stand there and check that learners are threading properly. Most of the routes were climbed by Goi and/or Roy. Roy has agreed, I have not spoken to Goi yet.

Comments:

No need to retro bolt the existing trad routes .--Joe gallacher (talk) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (BST)


I would be happy for my routes to be retrobolted if (1) that's what people want (2) all the routes on the relevant side of the zawn were bolted. I wouldn't want my routes retroed if (1) Illywhacker (2) Roygoi were not retroed.


Crag: Abbey Butress Port Talbot

Proposer: R.Thomas

Description: Bolt PR job and hack path through gorse

Comments: Seek FA opinion--Roy thomas 21:04, 9 March 2013 (GMT)





Crag: Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd

Proposer: Alan Rosier

Description: Retro Black Magic

Comments: The same bolts on the reto'd black magic would also replace two 30yr old comedy pegs on ladybird traverse.




Crag: Graves End

Proposer: John Bullock 27/5/13

Description: Would like to propose turning this unfrequented trad area into a sports crag. The rock is generally of poor quality particularly in the lower half and gear placements are often in friable positions. However, there appear to be reliable areas of rock mixed in (generally with no trad kit!) that could take bolts. I think this area could provide an excellent and popular source of good middle grade sports routes if bolted.

Comments:Excellent idea John there are also a few routes relying on rusty metal and bootlace threads of the exploding nature(personal experience)Maybe FA could be consulted re their "opinions "of retroing.--Roy thomas (talk) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

I agree John ...... Great idea. Quality of protection here is poor even for the lower grades. Daniel Cook

Sounds good to me too, but who consults the F.A. is it a gaggle of individuals or the BMC rep? Maybe I missed this and it has been discussed at a Swansea meeting? --Alan rosier (talk) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)


I agree that this would make a good sport venue. It is not a good trad venue at all. Note that is was not included in the recent selected guide to Gower and I fully understand why. It is quite a steep crag, so you really have to pull on the holds, and the rock quality is basically not up to the job. The result is that climbing here is a bit of a gamble; you might be lucky but you might not. Survival intact has little to do with skill. Personally I am very very fond of my lower limbs, and my back does not repond well to extreme shock, so I have not been tempted to climb much here, even though it is a very local crag. Bolting would totally transform it. It is a really beautiful and stangely remote part of Gower. It is rarely wet, often sunny and, what makes it really special for me, it is graced by falcons. There is no better place on Gower to hold the rope and gaze at the sky. Why don't we stop moaning about the good old days, and pretending that the trad climbing here is worth preserving, and embrace the joy of actually going climbing, rather than just reading about it in old guide books? Danny McCarroll

Whilst I believe that Graves End would make a very nice Sports Crag it is probably the wrong crag to think about equipping.
Two Reasons:
1. I think there are still plenty of climbers around who would be quite vocal in their opposition to equipping it.
2. I believe that Graves End is one of the few places in the UK where there are concentrations of Yellow Whitlow Grass and I suspect that the NT (or whomever owns it) would be unwilling to tolerate an increase in traffic.
--Tim Hoddy (talk) 17:24, 30 May 2013 (BST)

John I don't agree. Having grown up climbing around Pennard and continuing to do so with several visits to Gower a year I have really noticed the steady growth of retro-bolting. I have seen/enjoyed the benefits of the hard work put into equipping some places like watch house and fox hole. But it is beginning to spread to established trad areas. I would consider the retro bolting of places such as high pennard, with classics such as dan dare, samurai, knuckle fluster etc as unacceptable. Although not the proposal, I fear that it would become the logical next step after Graves End. I have climbed the trad at graves end and it is just like all the other rock around pennard. There is some loose rock and some of it is friable. As a point of fact, the only injury I have had recently was whilst clipping bolts at watch hole. A hold exploded between first and second bolt. I hit the floor with my head. Just because a route is bolted does not change the quality of the rock, or necessarily reduce the risk involved. Dan Dyson

No need to bolt , use the trad protection that the FA has demonstrated exists .--Joe gallacher (talk) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (BST)

I don't think that we really should be going around retro-bolting existing trad routes. As Simon Rawlinson has said, there's plenty of unclimbed rock, so no need to retro-bolt. Also as Tim H has mentioned it's an SSSI and there's a good chance the NT will say no anyway. It's a perfectly decent trad crag so let's just leave it alone. --Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer (talk) 19:29, 14 July 2013 (BST)




Crag:LLangattock Proposer: R.Thomas

Description: Re previous proposition.Some heel dragging going on here, for what/whom/when do we wait.

Comments:What's happening about the proposed "seperate" Llangattock meeting as it's an area "of National significance Who has done lots of "significant new routes there"? When will these be disclosed or will we have to wait until after they appear in a climbing publication.--Roy thomas (talk) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)


With some second hand info and reading between the lines a little, I think the following sums up the situation (and please correct me with hard facts if I interpret the situation incorrectly).

  1. Elfyn Jones (BMC Wales) has spoken to the land owners about potential for bolts (be it installing bolted lower offs / sports routes / retro bolting / whatever...?) in advance of discussion between climbers.
  2. In a recent call to arms for a crag clean up, the installation of dedicated belay stakes were talked about.
  3. Martin Crocker is in the process of producing a mini guide to the Llangattock Escarpment detailing old and new developments.


All this sounds like the discussions on bolts have resulted in a no bolt agreement, the details of discussions are likely to be presented in conjunction with the mini guide.

All in all sounds like no change. --Alan rosier (talk) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)



I agree. I thought the idea of this wiki page was that we would discuss crags BEFORE they were developed. It seems that applies to sport climbing but not trad climbing. So as soon as we propose a crag for bolting is it OK to go and trad everything, write a mini-guide and effectively ban bolting? I am glad that I do not live near Llangattock and so have no reason to bust a blood vessel. Danny McCarroll.


Danny, the post isn't clear I'm sorry. The crag is an established (extinct) trad venue with some horrendous top outs and shattered rock, which increases yearly without traffic. The proposal was to place bolted lower offs on established climbs to protect precious cliff top vegetation (not, actually to protect our friends from serious injury and death) and to retro old bolted/pegged routes and even create some sporty areas. The local farmer that leases the land for grazing also steals belay stakes and pretends he owns the place - "Gerroff Me Laaaaand!". --Alan rosier (talk) 12:26, 30 May 2013 (BST)

Al - The reason Llangattock is 'back on' is because the farmer has left. So people are talking about clmbing there more etc.

Danny - Al has it spot on there. Llangattock was developed as a trad crag in the 70s and 80s. So you're not missing much. There's plenty of unclimbed rock (it's quite a long cliff) that you can bolt up. I'd imagine that the local outdoors centers who currently use the crag would love having some routes which they can safely top rope. --Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer (talk) 19:36, 14 July 2013 BST)


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